tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post7712009399277247554..comments2024-03-28T12:23:06.497-07:00Comments on Food History Jottings: Of Lumbard Pies, Green Puddings and Pennyroyal Dumplings Ivan Dayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03500437663759868535noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-56690428936902593672020-09-12T09:09:41.039-07:002020-09-12T09:09:41.039-07:00I LOVE the taste. My mother had a recipe for a ste...I LOVE the taste. My mother had a recipe for a steamed pennyroyal "Season pudding" she got from her grandma but I lost the recipe. I do believe with this information I will be able to get a close resemblance to that scrumptious wet dumpling consistency. My mom warned me to make sure never to serve it to pregnant women as it can cause miscarriage. But the taste is melt in your mouth heaven. I lost my mom but I want to make this for Christmas. She would serve it with the turkey brown gravy. Cant wait to re-invent gramma's recipe.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12775016377684118628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-54557255430227955392014-03-18T01:42:01.804-07:002014-03-18T01:42:01.804-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-4568502952143378572013-09-12T19:09:25.776-07:002013-09-12T19:09:25.776-07:00I grow pennyroyal from Otto Richer's Herbs. On...I grow pennyroyal from Otto Richer's Herbs. One day I decided to test it's effectiveness as a natural flea repellent. I picked a lot and placed it in the dogs' houses along with their usual hay. None of the dogs would go in their houses.Denisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15096299164024429829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-3118582948274700562013-08-27T02:59:51.708-07:002013-08-27T02:59:51.708-07:00Hi Michael,
Your questions were fine and did not s...Hi Michael,<br />Your questions were fine and did not sound rude at all. The first one on the size of a penny loaf is a difficult one though. In fact it is the question of questions! Since the 13th century, the size of loaves of bread was linked to the price of grain by a statute known as the assize of bread. When the cost of corn went up, the bakers changed the size of a penny loaf accordingly. Without going into a great deal of detail they had complicated tables to help calculate how large their loaves should be when they was a fall or rise in the price of wheat. So the size of a penny loaf and all the other loaves made by professional bakers was literally a movable feast. It varied. So the very common direction of 'take the crumb of a penny loaf' was almost certainly intended as an approximation anyway because the author's who used the phrase would all have had experience of the variability of the size of a loaf. In any given recipe, I tend to use, as you do, an amount that works with the other ingredient quantities. I suspect that is what was done in the past too.<br /><br />As far as suet is concerned. Rendered suet is often mentioned in recipes, but as far as I know usually only in the contexts of making raised pie pastry and frying. I am sure that when we are instructed to chop or mince suet for pie fillings, puddings etc, that the suet has to be divested of its membranes and sinews, then minced with a knife. I find that a little bit of flour strewn on the suet helps to stop the knife from sticking. Considering how much was used in English recipes, this must have been a common activity in every kitchen in the land.<br />Ivan Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03500437663759868535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-64248373929017421152013-08-27T02:56:03.184-07:002013-08-27T02:56:03.184-07:00The barberry once used in Britain in confectionery...The barberry once used in Britain in confectionery and cookery was Berberis vulgaris L.. I know that this plant is naturalised in some parts of the US, but you will need to check that the one in your garden is this particular barberry, because there are many others in the genus. It is rarely used in Britain nowadays, but is used still in cookery in Iran and Russia. In England it was grown widely in gardens, but in the early 19th century was found to be a vector of wheat rust and people were discouraged from cultivating it.Ivan Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03500437663759868535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-68713594430557734052013-08-25T22:06:23.197-07:002013-08-25T22:06:23.197-07:00I just came back to take another look at this post...I just came back to take another look at this posting, and I noticed that the first part of my comment is somehow cut off, which makes me sound rather rude. I'm not sure why I'm having such trouble in posting today.<br /><br />I meant to begin by saying that this post raised a couple of questions that have been on my mind for some time. Sorry for the oddness of my first posting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-70483339376479009462013-08-25T18:03:58.693-07:002013-08-25T18:03:58.693-07:00First, what is an appropriate volume or weight mea...First, what is an appropriate volume or weight measure for the crumbs of a penny loaf? I usually put in enough to make the mix look right, but I'd like to have a more historically accurate sense of this ingredient from someone knowledgeable. English measures, please!!<br /><br />Second, I am a bit confused about the proper use of suet. I have never had trouble getting fresh suet, and my practice has been to clean it of membrane (carefully and tediously) and then chop it finely (or send it through the grater of the food processor). I freeze any extra for later use. Lately, I've begun to wonder if a more accurate approach would be to render it first and then grate the hard block of clean, pure suet. Rendering would save a lot of space in the freezer, but long ago, I read that the "correct" or best use of suet was to shred the fresh, cleaned but unrendered fat. Was that even correct? Is one method or the other more historically accurate? Does one or the other produce a better pudding or, more importantly for me, a better crust?<br /><br />Any thoughts on either of these questions would be appreciated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-37172521785148545072013-08-25T06:19:02.978-07:002013-08-25T06:19:02.978-07:00On a related note, I'm wondering if the barber...On a related note, I'm wondering if the barberries you use are the same as the ones we have here in the US; a low growing shrub, thorny, with red berries maturing in autumn? <br /><br />When we bought our home, they had been planted by a path to an outside stair where they caught at your legs and scratched or tore your clothes, so we dug them up. Since then a volunteer appeared on the the other side of the house at the edge of the woods. Guess I'll have to try a berry to see if it's edible! I have never heard of them being eaten in the US.GSGreatEscaperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03362042499522934670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-25044044156477537582013-08-21T04:33:00.147-07:002013-08-21T04:33:00.147-07:00Thank you Jeremy. I have read your interesting art...Thank you Jeremy. I have read your interesting article about pennyroyal and mentuccia. Here is a link if other readers would like to see it on Jeremy's weblog - http://www.jeremycherfas.net/2013/02/23/mentuccia-is-not-pennyroyal/<br /><br />IvanIvan Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03500437663759868535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-34535130082589180472013-08-21T02:43:46.976-07:002013-08-21T02:43:46.976-07:00Fascinating. There is a lot of confusion around pe...Fascinating. There is a lot of confusion around pennyroyal, especially in connection with the Italian mentuccia, which is often mistakenly "translated" as pennyroyal. The scare quotes are to indicate that, as with US and European "pennyroyal" a common name means little when identifying a particular plant species.<br /><br />I think the evidence for Mentha pulegium being both an insecticide and an abortifacient is pretty good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-70101340810388412422013-08-20T19:30:38.373-07:002013-08-20T19:30:38.373-07:00This is fabulous. And the pies beautiful. I never ...This is fabulous. And the pies beautiful. I never realized pennyroyal is toxic. Now I want some! Ken Ken Albalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16379852662105383295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-12533782741110034692013-08-20T11:16:35.614-07:002013-08-20T11:16:35.614-07:00Loved reading this post-thankyou so much for shari...Loved reading this post-thankyou so much for sharing :-)....haven't discovered wild pennyroyal yet.....but I am sure that I will.wildcraft divahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07743587952428928237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-58200813635800247962013-08-20T07:09:16.424-07:002013-08-20T07:09:16.424-07:00Hi Deana,
Yes. I grow pennyroyal too and have use...Hi Deana,<br /><br />Yes. I grow pennyroyal too and have used it in recipes for years. The toxic element in the essential oil is present in the leaves, flowers and stems of the plant in minute quantities. But I suspect that the fact that the oil is known to be extremely harmful, and it really has caused a large number of deaths, has put many off using the herb. I have never tested the folk belief that it is a good insecticide.<br /><br />I would be very interested to know if the pennyroyal you grow in your garden is the same one I have in mine. I cultivate European pennyroyal (Mentha pulegium L.). I have frequently seen American or Kentucky Pennyroyal (Hedeoma pulegioides<br />(L.) Pers.) in US gardens. The two are quite different plants and I do not think Hedeoma pulegioides is toxic. Are we growing the same pennyroyal?<br />Ivan Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03500437663759868535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-66118678673423461352013-08-20T07:01:05.246-07:002013-08-20T07:01:05.246-07:00There is enough evidence to demonstrate that pies ...There is enough evidence to demonstrate that pies and custards were made in these complex forms in other European cultures as well as England at this period, most notably Austria. Conrad Hagger, master cook to the Archbishop of Salzburg published hundreds of very elaborate designs in his cookery book of 1719, details of which can be found in some of my other posts. Seventeenth century French, Italian and Spanish recipe collections are full of recipes for pies, but I have not yet found illustrations of fancy shaped pies or directions for making them in any of the cookery books written in these languages. <br /><br />However, there are a few rare appearances of shaped pies of this kind in some Netherlandish paintings, most notably in a table still-life by a follower of the Antwerp artist Osias Beert. I have written about the rabbit pie depicted in this painting and have added it as an extra illustration to this post (see above). It is very similar to other rabbit pie designs from England and Austria and makes me wonder if there was some kind of convention which helped the diners know the pie's content because of its shape. However, this is pure conjecture, though the similarity in the lumber pie shapes illustrated above would support this argument, though there is very little other evidence. <br /><br />Making these pie cases is very demanding and requires a lot of skill and experience, but the art can be mastered. I suspect it was just another way in which the cooks of the period could show off their skills. The growth in pastry and cookery schools in the late seventeenth century where professional males taught ladies how to make these eccentric pastries indicate that they were popular.Ivan Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03500437663759868535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-24227008536876071232013-08-20T06:27:21.987-07:002013-08-20T06:27:21.987-07:00I have pennyroyal in my garden and love its sweet ...I have pennyroyal in my garden and love its sweet scent. I must tell you –– it can't be that toxic since thrips seem to enjoy eating it. I rinse them off frequently. I can imagine pennyroyal would be delightful in a pudding. The one recipe reminded me a bit of the Italian gnudi.Deana Sidneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14908407077861396161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8745493398948198755.post-17121569934899751622013-08-20T05:51:28.412-07:002013-08-20T05:51:28.412-07:00Have you come across any explanation to the fancif...Have you come across any explanation to the fanciful shapes of pies from this period over the course of your research? They are all very interesting, but they hardly seem like the shape you'd end up working with out of pragmatism alone. You've got quite a few examples of these shapes on your blog; I am particularly intrigued by the mince pies that appeared some time back (how long ago, I'm unsure: I've made my way through all the posts on this blog -- such fascinating reading!) Or, alternatively, are these fanciful pie shapes just the reflection of contemporary fashion, which, as today, have very little reason or pragmatism to underlie them?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com